Pain

Michelle Doyle
One definition of pain is... "an unpleasant sensation occurring in varying degrees of severity as a consequence of injury, disease or emotional disorder". A reader states, "Just because pain isn't felt, doesn't mean it isn't there." Based on this definition, doesn't pain have to be felt, to exist? Can pain exist apart from the nervous system? What's actually happening physiologically? Anyone want to sound off?
Yesterday at 12:45pm · Like · Comment
2 people like this.
Gerlinde Bowen Pain, in itself is hard to define. What causes it and why do we feel it? It may be a lack of nerve patterns having their normal feed of flow from the current that keeps us otherwise in balance. No current, no impulses, dead nerve ending. Pain.
Yesterday at 1:02pm · Like · 1 person
Dianna Linden On the one hand your invocation brought up that ole contemplation if a tree falls in the woods and no being is there to hear is there a sound?...interdependence.

I read that reader's original comment and thought about a process of dissociation that can, perhaps should, occur for people in chronic pain as a method of shifting awareness away from feeling it. Just because it's there doesn't mean you have to attend to it.

Erickson and his students, including the NLP guys used dissociation in hypnosis as a coping strategy for folks in pain. Does bring up some interesting contemplations as to whether the mind is entirely situated in the brain and nervous system or are those possibly the hardware mechanisms of something more vast in the software dept.

I've used dissociation effectively in the past to escape from the pain of having IUDs installed and removed, but couldn't find a way to do it effectively when I went thru 2 1/2 years of pretty horrific dental work. Reason being, I was slurping my awareness up into my head when the IUD stuff was happening, but when the dental stuff was happening, I couldn't find a way out of the head. I didn't know where to go to escape those sounds, invasive procedures in my mouth.

One young resident told me to bring in my ipod, some good music, we'd discuss at the beginning anything we might need to decide, then I could go off into the music for the rest of the time. That worked. Choose the right music.
;>)
Yesterday at 1:04pm · Like
Stefan Chmelik The opposite of disassociation is Mindfulness: observing a pain with equanimity also renders it non problematic.
Yesterday at 1:44pm · Like · 1 person
Dianna Linden Interesting proposal Stefan, but I'm not sure I'd agree that mindfulness is the opposite of hypnotic dissociation, certainly different.

I think there are many methods of meditation and they create different effects, but they might be more complimentary than opposite, in intention and effect. I'm quite interested in meditation and have studied/practiced several forms of it as well as studied/experienced a bit of Ericksonian hypnosis.

I will readily admit that my ability to drop into meditative absorption is not as advanced or stabilized as many of the teachers I've sat with. If I were adept enough at stabilizing equanimity in mindfulness then I would have been able to stay outside the meditation room at Tassajara Zen Center in that swarm of mosquitoes eating me and meditated peacefully right through it. I'd gotten a bit lost and arrived slightly late to a locked door at the zendo itself, so thought I'd try sitting just outside and following along with the goup from the porch bench. I only lasted several minutes before I was so distracted by the high pitched zinging sounds swarming round my head and itching bites that I decided to go to the baths and continue my efforts there. My powers of observation and equipoise were smaller than that swarm's amplitude.

I'm not sure how much physical pain you've actually experienced in life and successfully used equanimity to render non problematic, but our skill levels vary and in some cases, like a couple of births I attended and assisted with, dissociation was a much more effective mindfulness method than attempting to support making space for those intense bursts of pain using equanimity and awareness.

Listening without labeling meditation as I've been instructed in it (Vietnamese zen lineage) is very useful to quiet the judgmental mind, more effective in my experience than a visual focus. Vipassana directs the mind inward, looking for that fictitious self we all believe so definitively in, in a completely different way than some yogic methods of breathing direct us inward thru the colors of the chakras, quite like those Taoist methods described in "The Secret of the Golden Flower" by Wilhelm. The effects are different too, but are they opposite?

Not so sure bout that. I do know tho that, speaking for myself, there are limits to the quantity of mosquitoes surrounding me I can rest in equanimity with as there are with magnitudes of pain. In those cases, I find it useful to have other tools to use while I'm working on getting better at stabilizing equipoise. In my experience, it ain't always as easy as you make it sound.
Yesterday at 2:30pm · Like
Carley Fardell Can you wise folks recommend to me (a new DC) a type of hypnosis that works best for chronic pain patients? I would like to investigate the benefits of hypnois but am having a difficult time knowing where to go. Perhaps you know of a good therapist in the South Bay! Thanks in advance and thank you so very much for your though provoking posts :)
Yesterday at 3:00pm · Like
Dianna Linden Which bay would that be south of? Here in Santa Monica, that would be Redondo or Hermosa Beach.
;>)
Yesterday at 3:28pm · Like
Michelle Doyle I believe Carley is in the San Jose area...
Yesterday at 3:42pm · Like
Dianna Linden Ummmm, not knowing anyone off hand in that area, will inquire. Erickson taught at Stanford and Bandler and Grinder studied with him there, if my memory serves, and with Virginia Satir. I'll ask around.

One of the best places to learn and pr...
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Yesterday at 4:00pm · Like
Fred Nehring Carley, I worked with Dr. Lee Overholser for 2yrs. He was my mentor. He taught me alot about hynosis and bodywork. He is in San Diego, CA but might be able to provide you with a resourse in San Jose http://www.hypnosispower.com/aboutdroverholser.php
Yesterday at 5:02pm · Like
Karen Nielsen If pain exists apart from a nervous system, then we have to feel guilty about what we do to all the little yeasts when we make bread and whatnot. I vote you need at least a rudimentary central nervous system to qualify to feel pain - like if not a brain then at least a ganglion.
Yesterday at 5:45pm · Like
Stefan Chmelik Dianna, I was suggesting that it is simple, not that it is easy.
Yesterday at 6:06pm · Like
Gerlinde Bowen Since I am a practicing Reflexologist,this does not mean that I am immune to bodyly conjectures like everyone else is. What amazes me is the nerve pattern correolation, as it is. I have these sciatic bouts, every so often they creep up. Got out of my car today, bam there it was, that pain, pretty good one too. Immediatly found the corresponding point on my hand, held it steady as I was walking to where i was going. Two minutes later. Presto, pain was gone for good.
Yesterday at 7:19pm · Like
Jason Erickson Reminds me of an article in Best Life - a men's magazine. It had an article on how emotion and neurophysiology impact pain sensitivity. The core message is that pain sensitivity was largely a result of emotional reaction to the pain sensation. Patients with brain damage effecting emotional response could feel pain, but it didn't bother them.

This also helps explain why I and many of my martial arts friends have reduced pain sensitivity. We feel it, but it generally doesn't bother us like it used to. It doesn't arouse the same emotional reaction unless we understand it represents damage more significant than we might normally experience in practice.
21 hours ago · Like · 2 people
Gerlinde Bowen Unless, there is the pain response that is sudden. For instance if you were to break or sprain your foot. We are all so delicate when it comes down to it.
13 hours ago · Like
Michelle Doyle Hey, what's happen to my wall to post on...is evreyone missing their wall...can comment but no wall to post on??
9 hours ago · Like
Joanne Greenfield Ah man! Where's my name? I can't believe you quoted me without quoting 'me'.
8 hours ago · Like
Phil Greenfield Pain has one function. To get our attention!
8 hours ago · Like
Phil Greenfield ‎@Jason. Nice post. My teacher encourages us during standing on stake exercises to clearly delineate between 'structural pain' ("ouch") and 'emotional pain' ("I hate this posture don't you know I have far more important things to be doing right now in fact I hate you I don't know why ever signed up for this class!"). When the emotional component (desire for things to be other than they actually are in the moment) is acknowledged consciously, the mind returns to attending to the structural stability of the body, and the 'ouch' definitely lessens. More attention, more sensitivity, more finesse, better structure, more deep relaxation into bone as a support, less muscular tension, less pain.

I muse that in many chronic pain situations, this distancing of the mind from the present moment is a major factor in both worsening and prolonging the situation. Acceptance (perversely) seems to be a major step in initiating the recovery process. Bringing the attention of the mind deeply toward the sensations of the body structural is akin to a well-tacked sail, where the structure of the sail and the energy of the wind are relating well, propelling the boat along its path in an optimal way.
7 hours ago · Like · 2 people
Karen Nielsen Now at the top under "share" you have to hit the "status" icon to get the little posting box.
7 hours ago · Like
Michelle Doyle Thanks, Karen...gee, FB keeps changing without any warning. I suppose we will have to all switch to the 'new profile' page eventually...
7 hours ago · Like
Michelle Doyle Yeah, Joanne, I thought you would want me to keep your identitiy private out of respect...but, I guess not.
So, just to let everyone know this post is a continiuation of the Dec. 7th post...wanted to make it a separate post to explore pain i...
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7 hours ago · Like
Jerry Hesch Michelle,
I do believe that pain does not have to be conscious in order to impact the individual. I have much better pain control, yet prolonged sitting such as when on travel impacts my nervous system such that sleep is impaired. Some medications and supplements take out the emotional aspect, the suffering aspect, yet there is still a dysaesthesia that is perhaps unpleasant or simply non-normative. I am too tired to wax poetic but i think that concepts like Korr's facilitated segment support this. wish i could articulate more clearly...
best
j